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[Music]
you're
on you're live mayor
mayor you're Al
live good afternoon welcome to the
special work session today is Monday
April 29th uh 2024 it's approximately 1
1 p.m. I am mayor andrias we will start
with a moment of silence for the brave
men and women of the United States armed
forces as they protect our interests
around the globe as well as our
courageous men and women of the Los
crues police and fire
department uh please join me in the
pledge I pledge allegiance to the flag
of the United States of America and to
the Republic for which it stands one
nation under God
with liy andice for
all okay well again good afternoon we
have one item on the agenda and it'll be
solicitations and shopping cart
ordinance uh Chief story
good afternoon mayor councel Jeremy
story police chief first of all thank
you for being here on a a non counil
Wednesday or Monday for the special work
session I know those are valuable they
don't come up very
often um I want to start uh with a
couple stories from last week and I do
want to say thank you to everyone that
attended Our Town Hall it was a good
turnout and a lot of good questions and
discussion and this may not seem related
to what we're talking about today but
there is a Nexus and unfortunately all
these things tend to intertwine with
each other and they're they don't happen
in a silo there the issues with
addiction the issues with homelessness
and crime all have some overlap so
immediately after the town hall for
Crime reduction one of our Deputy Chiefs
and a lieutenant was in the back parking
lot the employee parking lot talking for
a little bit when they heard the sound
of glass breaking um moved around to the
side of the building that southide when
one of our facilities managers ran out
of the building as well and someone had
thrown a rock through the city hall
window to that office um they're able to
eventually get a good description off
the video find the subject at the South
End of the downtown mall and arrest him
for felony criminal damage to property
it's about a $1,600
window the point for this incident is
that uh this person is no um stranger to
to us or to many of the people in the
city that deal with these types of
issues and in fact many of the issues he
has do center around solicitation and
I'm just going to kind of go through
this this is just from 2023 and 2024 the
instance that he's been involved
in many of these are violent crimes I'll
give you a few incidents um just
randomly looking up a four or five
there's one where he asked somebody for
a lighter he solicited for a lighter and
he threw a rock and hit him in the head
when he said no he spit on a citizen um
over off the lman Walton area doing the
same thing um he attacked a customer
with a baton and hit them in the head he
attacked another customer at a different
uh business and ended up shattering the
window to a vehicle that there's two
babies
inside now not everybody is has this
extensive of a history but there are too
many people in Los crus and there's a
number of things implicated by this of
course competence being one of them um
some of the other issues with releasing
people when they already have existing
conditions of release for new offenses
but it also plays into this because many
of the behaviors we're seeing at our
businesses and other places are these
aggressive violent behaviors not just
from this
gentleman and just top it all off mostly
for irony at the same time this was
happening on the East parking lot a
second incident was happening where we
have a warrant operation for felony
warrants that's funded by the state they
saw someone that they were looking for
who also fits um the same type of repeat
offender um demographic he fled straight
to City Hall where he was eventually
taken into custody in the front parking
lot so you had those two incidents
happen at the same time after our town
hall to get into the meat and potatoes
and why we're here I'm going to start
with the solicitation ordinances these
are again our already existing
ordinances we're looking to modify them
um to do two things primarily one is to
remove potentially unconstitutional
language and to really focus and narrow
that Focus to a public safety interest
the changes in both 2162 and 2163 are
fairly minor overall as they stand
now and this is kind of just an overview
of what we have to accomplish with the
solicitation ordinance it has to be
neutral and content meaning that if we
enforce it for panhandling we have to
enforce it for somebody that's
potentially doing a car wash or that's
soliciting for a fundraiser or a funeral
it has to be neutral in content another
thing is has to be narrowly tailored so
the more specific the restrictions are
the more likely it will be upheld the
more broad it is the less likely it will
be upheld in court leave open ample
alternative channels of
communication and this one is really
important to serve a significant
government interest that is pressing
legitimate in this case primarily Public
Safety and depending on what we're
talking about whether it's on uh
aggressive panhandling or panhandling
around roadways where it becomes
dangerous public safety is what we're
after with these
ordinances so we'll start with 2162
which is prohibited
solicitations this is how it reads
currently as a draft it shall be
unlawful for any person to solicit money
or other things of value or to solicit
the sale of goods or services in the
manner described in subp paragraphs 1
through3 of this section I'm going to go
through 1 through three individually um
so I'm going to forgo reading it in its
entirety but there's three separate ways
that this ordinance would be
implicated the first one is solicitation
is prohibited in an aggressive manner in
a public area or on private property
within the city limits so then the
question is what does aggressive mean
and I apologize ahead of time I'm to go
through several slides for the
definition of aggressive that's
currently in 21-61 of the
ordinance there's six different ways
that aggressive
the word aggressive could come into play
and meet the requirements of the St of
the ordinance the first is intentionally
or recklessly making any physical
contact with or touching another person
in the course of the solicitation
without the person's consent now this
would already be a crime of battery um
but that's the first condition of
aggressive second is following the
person being solicited that's the key
following the person if that's an
important if that conduct is intended to
or is likely to cause a reasonable
person to fear imminent bodily harm or
the commission of a criminal act upon
property in the person's possession or
is intended to or is reasonably likely
to intimidate the person being solicited
into responding affirmatively to the
solicitation now you're going to see
those two things kind of repeat through
the definition but this first one is
doing either one of those while
following the person the next way it
could be aggressive panhandling is
continuing to solicit within 5T of the
person being solicited after the person
has made a negative response if
continuing the solicit a is intended to
or likely to cause a reasonable person
to fear imminent bodily harm or the
commission of a criminal act upon
property in the person's possession or
as intended or as reasonably like
intended to or as reasonably likely to
intimidate the person being solicited
into responding affirmatively to the
solicitation so following the person
continuing to solicit within 5T after
they've already had a negative response
doing these other things the next one is
intentionally or recklessly blocking the
safe or free passage of the person being
solicited or requiring the person or the
driver of a vehicle to take evasive
action to avoid physical contact with
the person making the
solicitation and it has a little caveat
that acts authorized as an exercise of
one's constitutional right to pick it or
legally protest and acts authorized by a
business license pursuant to those
sections of our code shall not
constitute obstruction of pedestrian or
V vehicular
traffic two more intentionally or
recklessly using obscene or abusive
language or gestures now it's important
that in and of itself using obscene or
abusive language is technically
protected by the or is protected by the
First Amendment except when there's a
line that's crossed and so if they use
obscene or abusive language that is
intended to or likely to cause a
reasonable person to fear imminent
bodily harm or the commission of a
criminal act upon property in the person
person's possession or words intended to
are reasonably likely to intimidate the
person into responding affirmatively to
the solicitation and support on all
these you have to have that first part
and one of the the second
parts and the last one is approaching
the person being solicited in a manner
that is intended to or is likely to
cause a reasonable person to fear
imminent bodily harm or the commission
of a criminal act upon property in the
person's possession or intended to are
as reasonably likely to intimidate the
person being solicited into responding
affirmatively to the solicitation so
that's the definition of aggressive and
that was the first prohibition under
this ordinance which is aggressive
solicitation whether it's on private
property or public property now the next
one is on private property specifically
and keep in mind that there is far less
protections on private property as you
would imagine than there are on public
property so this one is solicitation is
prohibited as follows on private
property if the owner tenant or lawful
occupant has asked the person not to
solicit on the property or has posted a
sign clearly indicating that
solicitations are prohibited on the
property that's pretty clearcut this is
one of the things that private property
can do now to uh if they're dealing with
issues of solicitation on their property
especially aggressive solicitation is
they can prohibit it entirely on their
property the private
property and the third one is from any
occupant or solicitation is prohibited
from any occupant of a motor vehicle
that is in traffic on a public Street if
the solicitation would cause any person
and this is the important part to walk
upon a portion of the roadway not
clearly designated and or marked for
pedestrian foot foot traffic
on sidewalks and other places that are
considered traditional public forum we
cannot regulate speech um like
solicitation but once they step into the
lanes of traffic it becomes a public
safety issue especially um on our
roadways where cars are going
faster and we've seen those issues and
I'll talk about it in a second with some
of our pedestrian crash stats especially
fatalities but this is really what we're
concerned with is when it either causes
the vehicle to do something that could
cause a crash or The Pedestrian
themselves could could be injured from
their
actions that goes into our next one
which is 2163 which is standing or Ling
on or near Street or Highway and this
kind of Echoes this last point from
2162 but the purpose of this section is
to prevent D dangers to persons in
property to prevent traffic delays and
to avoid interference with traffic flow
roadways that have Center medians often
are designed to handle specific traffic
flow P problems any delay or distraction
May interfere with traffic planning and
may present dangerous roadway conditions
for drivers and
pedestrians so what this one prohibits
is it shall be unlawful for any person
to stand or loer on a street or Highway
when such Activity one causes the person
performing the activity to enter onto
the traveled portion of a street or
Highway that's the portion again it'll
be at the end of the definition where
Road or Vehicles actually go to travel
so the places the lanes where Vehicles
travel the person performing the
activity is located such that vehicles
cannot move into a legal parking area
safely they're blocking that
area C it shall be unlawful for any
person to stand or ler on any Highway
included in the interstate system
including any entrance to or exit from
the highway this is on the actual
off-ramp or the on-ramp not on sidewalks
or areas that are not in the roadway
itself and for purposes of this section
the traveled portion of the street or
Highway shall mean the portion of the
road normally used by moving motor
vehicle traffic
just to show some some crash data on
what we've seen a concerning Trend with
pedestrians in the last four years
especially we've seen the number of
pedestrian crashes overall increase
fairly drastically but even more
concerning the number of fatal
pedestrian crashes from a fairly
consistent number back when I was in
traffic in 2018 2019 very consistent
around two three at the most that we
would see and now we have numbers as
high as seven and most of those
pedestrian fatalities are a Cause by a
pedestrian who enters a roadway in a
place other than a crosswalk or that's a
place that's designated for a
pedestrian and so one of the things
we're trying to address is to limit uh
these types of injury crashes or
fatalities and often times drugs are
associated with these crashes and I
think that's another reason we've seen
the increase because fentel arriving in
Los Cruzes kind of overlays with that as
well moving along I'm going to get right
into the shopping cart ordinance which
is the one that has a little bit more
detail to it this is a new ordinance
again not an existing ordinance that
we're
modifying and there's several things
we're trying to accomplish with a
shopping cart ordinance when this was
first brought up and it was originally
brought up by our community outreach
officers who really are just in the
trenches every day dealing with some of
these issues and they saw the need for
it and it sounded Petty or minor how
much of an effect would this really have
but the more you look at it and the more
we've seen The more I've examined it I
truly believe that it would have a
positive effect and I'll explain why
here in a few slides but abandoned
shopping carts in the city can
potentially Hazard the health and safety
of the public interfere with pedestrian
and vehicular traffic we've had many
shopping carts in roadways and create a
public nuisance the accumulation of
abandoned carts on public and private
property tends to reduce property values
and promote blight and deterioration
which results in a public nuisance and I
wish it was limited in scope but I'll
show you some of the projects we've done
which if you saw the town Haller watched
it you kind of already know what those
numbers are but it doesn't take a lot of
time to gather a significant amount of
carts that are left throughout our city
and I gave this anecdote the other day
as well but I worked a couple hours uh
last week in the evening was walking a
small desert area between a residential
and a commercial area not looking for
shopping carts but I came across two
shopping carts full of property nobody
around full of trash and not even
looking for
them they ultimately make our problem
and our problems in the city appear much
worse and this perception is not helpful
for anyone often times the closer we can
get perception to reality of those two
things to match the better it is for
everybody when we're making decisions
whether it's those that are homeless the
service providers the police the public
the businesses when we're dealing with
the facts we can come up with solutions
that are meaningful and actually have a
positive effect when perception is way
off from reality we tend to do a whole
lot of of yelling and screaming and not
accomplish much because we're not
starting from an accurate
place and I already gave this away if
you saw the town hall but what I I asked
the people at the Town Hall to raise
their fingers for how many people they
thought were in this encampment and I
got a number between four and 10 I think
four was the lowest I saw and the
reality is this was ultimately one
person's encampment there's multiple
shopping carts that are there you can
see the one in the front there's several
in the back and when someone drives by
this including me if I drove by this I
would think there's five six 10 12
people in this encampment when the
reality is just one person and so that
perception being way out of scope with
reality is not helpful for us or anybody
else in the
city how bad is the problem uh for us to
understand the need for this ordinance
we have to understand the extent of the
problem in the city so I'm going to play
a quick video no sound what I want you
to do if possible is try to count the
number of carts that are involved in
this video
a couple things the answer is 14 for
those that are wondering 14 cards on the
left is a picture of all the resources
that took to clean up this area um
including mono Mano and this is all from
one person this is one person with 14
cards full of some property some
personal property but also a lot of
stuff that's objectively trash which to
them may be property but ultimately I'll
talk about in a minute it makes it very
difficult to help this person because
they are tied like an anchor to this
property to this trash and it makes it
hard to move them anywhere including to
services but when people pass by and
they see 14 carts full of stuff the
perception of course is not that there's
one person there it's that there's 5 10
14 people
there I'm going to go through a series
of photos and I'm not going to spend a
ton of time these are all from Las
Cruses over the last uh these are from
the 2020 operation but most of them are
fairly recent
and just to to highlight the extent of
the problem several operations have been
done by our community outreach section
along with codes and other both City
departments mono Mano and other
organizations
to try to clean up the abandoned carts
one of the first projects was in August
of 2020 lasted only 5 hours and they
recovered 152 carts valued at $50,900
based on the estimates from the
different retailers on what they pay for
each cart significant amount of 5 hours
there's been others between but I
highlight one of the first projects in
the last just kind of bookmark the issue
this operation of last week August or
sorry April 23rd lasted only two hours
and in those two hours with the help of
all these different organizations and
departments 162 carts were collected in
two hours valued at $ 32,1
180 and here's a breakdown of where we
saw those carts come
from again these are all abandoned carts
are not taken from anybody but these are
abandoned carts very often full of trash
and with debris and trash all around
them and so like streets and Public
Works they're not really doing anything
with the Cs but they have to come in
along with mono mono to help pick up all
the trash and debris fill truckloads of
it around these
areas we get into the details of the
ordinance I'm going to try to simplify
as much as possible of course with
questions we can get into any part of it
but the ordinance sets up several
requirements for retail businesses that
utilize shopping carts so some of those
requirements are a fixing and
identifying sign on the each cart and
what that sign does it tells us which
business it is which specific location
or store number and a contact number for
pickup if it's found
abandon the other thing they have to do
is submit a shopping cart plan every two
years which has to be approved through
Community Development and I'll go into
kind of the details of what the shopping
cart plan
entails but there is the caveat unless
they apply for an exemption and are
approved which I'll also talk about in a
second and then that case they would not
have to do the shopping cart
plan shopping cart plan has several
different components the first is kind
of identifying and information contact
information for the business the next is
the number of carts that they have and
how they intend to comply with the sign
requirement on the carts the next is
Public Notices it's important obviously
for public education so that could be a
number of things signs on the shop
shopping cart Corrals that say if you
take it it's unlawful it's a crime um on
the business itself they can do printing
on receipts there's a bunch of different
ways to comply and usually a combination
is
best the next part is a loss prevention
or description of the measures the
business owners will Implement to
prevent the removal of carts this can
include security guards that are outside
in the parking lots to help prevent
people from taking carts it can include
uh surveillance trailers like we have
that some of the retailers have and
again it's a combination of things
preferably that help reduce the number
of carts taken the next part is a cart
retrieval plan for them to collect
off-site shopping carts at least once a
week and within 3 days of notification
by the city of an abandoned
cart and then the last part is how they
kind of implement all the parts before
that
the exemptions and this is an important
part there are businesses in town
already that would qualify for these
exemptions would essentially have to do
nothing other than apply for the
exemption and get it approved every two
years in order to qualify for an
exemption both parts have to be met so
number one is that they have effective
restraints that prohibit any carts from
exiting the premise so examples
generally are poles attached to the the
carts I'll show a picture I think
everyone knows what I'm talking about um
electric wheel locks where there's a
perimeter system if the cart passes a
point in the parking lot the Wheels lock
and it makes it difficult to roll that
cart courtesy clerks which is something
that savart which is one of our smaller
Grocers but already does they have
somebody that escorts everybody to their
car helps them load the groceries and
then brings the car back so savart if
this is passed would have to do
essentially nothing other than every two
years just apply for their exemption and
get it
approved the business also has to secure
all shopping carts during the hours the
business is closed by storing them
inside or locking them outside or
finding some way to prevent people from
taking them after hours so both parts
have to be done to qualify for an
exemption so some examples a lot of the
smaller stores like Dollar General uh
Family Dollar Dollar Tree a lot of those
stores where people aren't taking or
getting a ton of stuff might be able to
put the poles on there to prevent them
going into the parking lot whereas a lot
of other stores people need to get their
groceries to the the car and the cart is
the way they do that so the whe lock
system is another possible option and
then of course attendance like I
mentioned with save
Mark the second part of the ordinance is
really all inone but the other
prohibitions that are in the ordinance
is it makes it unlawful for a person to
do these things remove a shopping cart
from the retail premise where it is used
for shopping purposes possess an offsite
shopping cart not subject to an
exception identified in this article
abandon an offsite shopping cart or
alter convert or tamper with a shopping
cart or remove any part or portion
thereof or remove obliterate or alter
any identifying sign Mark or serial
number on a shopping cart now it is
important to point out and I'll mention
it again that all these things are
technically already illegal not even
technically they are already illegal
either under possession of stolen
property Larsen or criminal damage to
property so these are not new crimes per
se they're already already
illegal the enforcement part of the
ordinance allows for enforcement of the
ordinance under several different
provisions of Municipal
Code U that are permitted by law which
includes revocation of an exemption
under subsection 5 the exemptions we
just talked about the requirement that
the owner abide by conditions of a new
shopping cart plan what terms to be
dictated by the administrator the
administrator comes from Community
Development prosecution has a petty
misdemeanor under the authority of Los
cruus Municipal Code
1-10 imposition of a fine of not less
than $100 no more than $500 for a first
violation $200 no more than $500 for a
second violation within a 365-day period
and $500 for each additional violation
within a 365 day period period
procedures for abatement of a nuisance
under sections 18-5 and 18-7 of the Los
cruus Municipal Code a civil action for
enforcement including to Abate a public
nuisance by injunctive relief or other
any other court order and proceedings
for revocation of a use or site
development permit if applicable and one
of the things is important to mention is
that a business license in Los cruus is
contingent on not being in violation of
other Municipal ordinances or codes so
if there's a violation of the shopping
cart plan at some point that could be a
remedy as
well another caveat that's in the
ordinance itself it says at the
discretion of the sentencing judge any
person convicted on this article May
perform community service in lie of any
fine imposed by the court and by
community service one of the options
under for community service in New
Mexico is treatment whether for mental
illness or substance use or both so that
would be ultimately the goal is that
this is a mechanism if necessary to plug
people into services that need them the
most
so that's the ordinance the nuts and
bolts of it why is this ordinance
important I mentioned already that theft
is already a crime we could take
enforcement action right now if that was
the goal the goal was enforcement we
could do that right now that's not the
goal the goal is to have a holistic
approach to try to make Los Cru is
better and enforcement by itself will
not just accomplish that it has to be a
number of things together another point
that I think that's really important as
soon as we justify and excuse any crime
we compromise the entire system and we
are talking about something that it's
already a crime it's theft if somebody
went into somebody's open garage or
carport and stole a wagon to carry their
property around town I don't think we
would excuse that I think we would
consider that a crime and that there
should be some action taken to return
that property to the owner if someone
went into Walmart and stole shoplifted a
wagon the same type of wagon to carry
property we'd probably see that a little
bit differently than the shopping cart
itself But ultimately the crime is the
same except for the fact that the
shopping cart is actually worth more
than the wagon itself
there are several businesses with no
carts or few carts available may seem
like a minor point and is just one of
the reasons for this ordinance but even
Walmart sometimes it's difficult to find
carts because of the number of carts
that are taken from Walmart you saw how
many were recovered in that 2-hour
period just from
Walmarts but when people go to a
business and there's no carts available
it is something that impacts both the
business and the customer which is our
citizens it makes a bad situation in our
city appear even worse and this is a
negative for all parties I already hit
on it but I I do think the perception of
the problems we Face being inflated is
not a good thing for us um we do have
issues with homelessness we do have
issues with crime substance use
untreated Mental Illness but we need to
try to have that perception in check
with reality and a lot of times these
things
inflate shopping carts contribute to
blight and unhealthy conditions we do
find shopping carts that are just by
themselves empty but a lot of times what
we find is the shopping cart full of
trash surrounded by trash and other
items that are hazardous U biohazards
and so there's this it goes along with
the territory when we find abandoned
shopping carts we tend to find a lot of
trash and debris associated with
it shopping carts full of stuff limit
the mobility of those who are homeless
and their access to service Services I
mentioned it earlier but I really
believe it and I think it's a a point
that's overlooked that when you have
someone especially those who suffer from
mental illness or addiction meth
addiction often times schizophrenia is
associated with reping behavior and so
they will have those 14 carts full of
cardboard and other trash that to them
is property I've seen it before where
I've had people take trash bags out of
trash cans and store it in the shopping
cart and take it with them for days
because that's their property but
ultimately what that does is become an
anchor to try to get them to the
services when you have someone with 14
carts and they're 5 miles from Community
hope where we can get them services or
any other service provider good luck
getting them those 5 miles with 14 carts
it's very difficult if enforcement
action is taken which is not the first
course of action is ultimately an
opportunity to plug them into treatment
through municipal courts very soon to be
SOS program and that is again not the
first course of action but if that is
the end result for
somebody then hopefully it's still an
opportunity to plug them into the
services that they would not get on
their own and at that point I hope some
good can come out of it I have a lot of
confidence in judge fosa and I do want
to say that on the record that he's
already doing what he can within the
framework but I think very soon with the
the addition of the case manager and a
few compliance Personnel ankle
monitoring is a part of it because that
allows us to have some options on
pre-trial release but I I'm hopeful that
that will be a mechanism to help a lot
of these people that we see over and
over and over especially for the petty
crimes some final thoughts this is not
about punishing people who are homeless
it's not about criminalizing
homelessness it's criminalizing crime
it's criminalizing
theft there are options if a cart is
taken from someone um working with our
nonprofits and as we do this a lot of
times it's going to be operation based a
patrol officer if they pass by somebody
with a cart if this is passed is not
generally going to have the time to stop
and try to deal with that whether they
want it to or not so it's going to be a
targeted effort with community outreach
codes mono mono and others to try to
address this and that could be a
holistic approach when we do it so that
we have resources when we take the cart
deal with that person but that could be
Outreach team from Community of Hope
that could be potentially Personnel from
Fire based on time and personnel and try
to even offer an alternative for their
property for their essential property so
they have a mechanism to carry it
around one of the goals is of the
Ordinance one of the main goals of the
ordinance is to limit the hoarding of
trash that contributes to blight but it
also impairs people's access to services
and Mobility which I've mentioned
several times but I wanted to end on
that
point and the question is how do these
people get to their service appointments
either they leave their property there
which often times is not there when they
return or they're afraid to leave it or
they try to tow this around with them
across town and it becomes that anchor
to them getting help and doing better
for
themselves at this point I will stand
for
questions thank you Chief star thank you
for your presentation this time any
members of council have any questions
councelor Fus thank you mayor and and
thank you Chief story I have a series of
questions um the I think that the the
last slide you presented uh excuse me no
55 um you indicate that uh this is not
creating a new crime or criminalizing
homelessness now if someone is to pay a
fine and that person is
homeless and that fine isn't paid what
happens to that
person well through Municipal Court the
judge has a discretion on what fines are
imposed for any crime any Petty messy
meter in Municipal Court okay so he also
has discretion or they have discretion
whether or not they issue a bench
warrant or they issue another summons so
ultimately that discretion falls on the
the judge so what if a bench warrant is
issued what happens to that person if
that person is found then they are
arrested on the bench mark they're
arrested and brought before the judge
and they're arrested and then what
happens after they're
arrested that's good point and mayor
councel fles uh Mr Douglas or acting
City attorney for a failure to pay yes
the first thing they get is a summons
and a notice Superior Court before
warrant is issued so a failure to appear
is treated slightly differently versus a
failure to pay well failure to appear
and failure to pay what happens are they
incarcerated after that if there's a
they're if they're Trent if there
there's a warrant out for their
arrest what happens if they are found at
that point if they're found with any
warrant for their arrest the warrant is
served they're brought before the judge
and the judge determines whether they're
released or not which generally speaking
they are released well generally
speaking but what is the possibility if
that person is not released at that
point what happens to that
person as a as opposed to any other
crime counselor no as Oppo no no
specific to this this would be treated
as any other Petty Missy meaner under
the municipal code so whether it was a
shoplifting or this type of theft it
would be essentially treat the same but
the discretion is the judges so what if
someone has racked up a a bunch of U
fines and they're not
paid what happens at that point I mean
the person is a quote repeat offender
unquote what happens to that person well
the goal is to get them engaged with the
court I'm sorry mayor council FL the
goal is to get them engaged with the
court as long as they're engaged with
the court the court works with them and
that that could be all kinds of things
they again community service and Lou
judge fosa is an advocate of that so as
long as they are appearing he can take
all the fines and make it into community
service or treatment the goal is
obviously not to try to get someone who
doesn't have anything to pay the court
the goal is to try to address the crime
itself and hopefully get them the
treatment that they need Chief story is
there any other municip IP ality is
there a municipality that you know of
that has been
successful um specifically with um what
you're proposing did you find any other
municipalities that have um these uh
this ordinance there's many
municipalities especially in California
that have shopping cart ordinances and
they all look slightly different some
are more effective than others some are
not effective at all we try to model
this one after the ones that are more
effective
is there any chance for um any
possibility for
incarceration the only time there be
incarceration is under two circumstances
one if there's another crime committed
that warrants a physical arrest which is
an important point I didn't mention in
in Los cruus or in New Mexico in general
for non-violent misers there are not
physical arrests it's either a criminal
citation or summons so this like all
other nonviolent misdemeanors the person
has not going to jail unless they commit
some other crime that is a physical
arrest like they batter the officer or
they batter somebody else um in the
commission of the solicitation or the
shopping cart violation or if they fail
to appear if they fail to appear they
face the possibility of being
incarcerated yes and how would that
person that homeless person receive
notice of an um to appear generally they
are sent to 99 West am or the Community
of Hope campus is where most people get
their
mail they have a where do they receive
their mail 999 West Amador Community V
but that's a a presumption isn't it I
mean I don't think every homeless person
goes to that 999 Amador mayor counc
that's an option for anybody to get to
receive their mail there but ultimately
these issues you're describing are
issues for any crime including the the
hundreds that the person I I exhibited
earlier commits who's also homeless so
those issues we have to deal with
whether it's shoplifting battery chromal
damage to property or any other crime
same issues my concern uh Chief is that
um that you know there's that Supreme
Court case right now uh well God knows
when it's going to be heard because they
move slower than molasses but the
Johnson uh v um versus Grants Pass in
Oregon and
um that one um is going to look at the
criminalization and VI and look into
whether there's a violation of the um
cruel and unusual uh
punishment um part of the Constitution
and cruel being you know that's going to
be up to the justices to decide what
constitutes rule but from where I'm
sitting right now looking at this uh my
heart goes out to the homeless and there
but for the grace of God go I you never
know know you just never know and um I I
find it a bit harsh because I think um
and and you did touch on mental
competency um but
uh it it somehow I find it very
difficult to um to accept it's not to
say that there's a problem it doesn't
you know I recognize there's a problem
I'm not sure this is the solution thank
you Chief thank you mayor
mayor if I may yes go ahead and and the
grants mayor council florides the Grants
Pass case is is really apples to oranges
with this I mean essentially it would be
same as legalizing
shoplifting um because somebody's
homeless it's it's theft we're talking
about it's Lars so thank you excuse me
Chief in both cases the end result is
incarceration the potential for
incarceration so irrespective of if
irrespective of the quote crime
misdemeanor whatever um there is a
difference uh there there is a
difference but not in the outcome not in
how it's going to affect a a person and
that's my point I mean I don't I don't
think anybody likes the blight but then
you know if we don't like the problem we
should all work to uh come up with a
good solution thank you
is there anyone else councilor Ken um
thank you chief for your presentation
I'm curious on the one that you
highlighted if one of these was among
those charges how would it be
different if one of these I'm sorry
mayor councelor Grant if a citation for
panhandling or having a cart were among
the the things that were on the list of
the person that you highlighted at the
beginning how would the outcomes be
different they wouldn't necessarily be
different but they ultimately hopefully
will be an opportunity to plug those
people into Services any of those Petty
misir would be an opportunity to plug
them into services but at the same time
my point before is as soon as we excuse
it all together a crime and theft is a
crime and I'm not sure anybody's arguing
that theft's not a crime then we
compromise the whole system I can't
control obviously what happens after the
fact but we clearly have breakdowns at
many levels in our New Mexico Criminal
Justice System but but from where I'm
I'm sitting that doesn't mean that we
don't do our part I don't do my part to
try to address the issues where I
can thank you I appreciate your
inut please if you could hold it down
please anyone
else may pro thank you thank you Chief
and thank you for the Town Hall I
appreciated the presentation from your
staff both DC Urena and um Lieutenant
Bradley um so thank you for that I just
I want to read something real quick from
an article before I go into some of my
questions and some some of my
suggestions um so that you and all of
you have an understanding of where I'm
coming from on this um I sent this
article to to Brad to yourself Chief and
to Connie a while ago but it's called
nowhere to go homelessness among former
incarcerated people and it's a big
research it's a ton of research on um
there's a piece that talks about the
revolving door and homelessness and I
think people in our community love to
talk about the revolving door of crime
and so I want to talk about that as it
relates to
homelessness this says we find that
people experiencing cycles of
incarceration and release otherwise
known as the revolving door of
incarceration are also more likely to be
homeless people who have been to prison
just once experience homelessness at a
rate nearly seven times higher than the
general public but people who have been
incarcerated more than once have rates
13 times higher than the general public
in other words people who have been
incarcerated multiple times are twice as
likely to be homeless as those who are
returning from their first prison term
there's more research on here about the
the racial aspects of it and how black
and brown folks then the rates are even
higher for them the next piece says
unfortunately being homeless makes
formally incarcerated people more likely
to be arrested and incarcerated again
thanks to policies that criminalize
homelessness as law enforcement agencies
aggressively enforce offenses such as
sleeping in public spaces which is what
grants p is trying to criminalize pain
handling and public urination some I
argue shopping carts could be included
here not to mention other low-level
offenses that are more visible when
committed in public formerly
incarcerated people are unnecessarily
funneled back through their revolving
door so you know I think often I get
criticisms about um I think that my
frame of work and when I approach issues
of homelessness I think people often
think of my compassion is a liability
but really I'm just this is my frame of
work right this is my philosophy that I
as a social worker I deeply understand
that um once people have a criminal
record it is they're much much harder to
find housing much much harder to find
jobs and those kinds of things right so
the barriers to entry to housing just
become incredibly more difficult and so
I I do have concerns about the criminal
the criminalization of some of these
pieces but I just have some questions
before I get into some suggestions Chief
um there's there's technically three
things you presented right
2163 and then the shopping carts yes
ma'am okay um can you just talk a little
bit about what the enforcement would
look like like for those things like
maybe for the aggressive pay on handling
like once a call comes in somebody I'm
assuming it's you're going to wait for
somebody to make a 911 call and said
this just happened to me at the
Albertson's parking lot yes mayor mayor
post him unless it's observed by the
officer they they see Behavior that's
clearly aggressive paning they could
obviously take action but um a couple
things one when it comes to aggressive
paning it's a little bit different than
say even solicitation I want to stay
away from pany solicitation on private
proper where there could be an
educational process beforehand part of
that's Theos in the signs part of that's
trying to get cooperation from the
person without having to take
enforcement action when it comes to
aggressive paneling depending on the
behavior and the cooperation of the
victim there may be enforcement action
as a criminal citation right then um if
it's violent behavior let's say the the
person punched them threw something at
them hit them there might be a physical
arest in that case more than
likely I'm not sure if that answers yeah
yes and then on
um the roadway for example are you sort
of waiting is this when an officer sees
a person on the roadway is when an
enforcement will happen so on that one
mayor proam mayor mayor proam that one
would be a lot more education as a
change in the ordinance so making
contact ensuring that people understand
where they can be and can't be and again
we can only regulate that behavior time
Manner and place um under those very
strict guidelines and so if someone's on
a sidewalk soliciting without being
aggressive that that's not going to be
criminalized under this ordinance or any
ordinance but if the person's entering
the roadway depending on what the
behavior is more than likely it' be
Education First after a period of
Education with the update to the
ordinance then there may be enforcement
action taken if necessary but again that
would be a citation or a summons
okay um and then the shopping card
ordinance can so I heard you a couple
times say that the officer potentially
could take the shopping carts so what
what will that actually look like this
there'll be a yeah I'll just let you
answer that mayor M proam again you know
the way I Envision it if it passes is to
develop these these projects where we
have all the resources we need to
actually deal with it so um a patrol
officer our call volume is incredibly
high in this jurisdiction and higher
than most so Patrol officers going to a
domestic or a burglary in progress are
not going to stop and deal with that
when they see it it takes time it's
going to take 30 40 minutes to deal with
it because their property is their
property so if something is is property
it has to stay with them we're not going
to discarded their property nor could we
legally and that means finding a way to
to balance those two things and there's
different options like I talked about so
when we do the projects it allows us to
have more resources in place so that we
can address all these nuances of the
ordinance um I'm not sure if that
answers it but what what pieces of the
this these three that you proposed are
new
the obviously the shopping cart
ordinance is new in its entirety as far
as how it's that ordinance the asking
for businesses to submit a plan and
those kinds of things the enforcement of
that aside the enforcement is not new
right you already said shoplifting is
already a crime right so mayor mayor
proam again if if the ordinance failed
and we wanted to just do enforcement we
could do that we could go out and just
start charging people with receiving
stolen property or possession of stolen
property that's not the go of itself
self because we talked about at the Town
Hall enforcement is a piece in this and
it has to be a piece in it but it is
definitely not the only part of it and
we cannot arrest or S our way out of any
problem including this one but if we
exclude that as an option we also can't
solve the problem I I think we've seen
that in many other places including
outside of the United States so there
has to be this balance between the two
and that's why this this holistic
approach is what I would prefer because
it allows us a lot more opportunity to
reduce the number of carts taken have
the businesses help us help them and
then there's less people that are even
in the predicament where they have a
shopping cart with their stuff in it in
the first
place thanks Chief um a couple more
questions on the businesses um have you
have you or any of your teams spoken to
Folks at Walmart or Alberton or any of
these
um folks that are having their cards
taken at a higher rate Yes actually
mayor mayor proam I spoke with one of
the managers of one of our local Walmart
stores and they were in favor of it
favor of it if you would have asked them
maybe a year or two years ago they
probably would not have been but it's
gotten to the point where there's many
times where they don't have the cards
they're ordering so many shopping carts
monetarily the business is actually
going to save money whether that's a
smaller business or Walmart um and so
all it is is a little bit of time and
inconvenience to implement this this
plan but at this point the ones I've
spoke to are in favor of it okay thank
you um I do you know I do have a lot of
criticisms about Walmart and honestly I
have little sympathy for them in their
stolen property I think they perhaps if
they hired more people and stop
automating so much of their services
they would have more people in their
parking lots picking up uh the the
shopping carts that people leave behind
but that's for another work session um I
do I do hope that they come to the table
I think that as when we talk about um if
someone comes into my yard and steals
something from me we want to try to
prevent those things but if someone
comes into my yard I'm also going to
make sure to do things um that prevent
that in the future right and I think
Walmart specifically places like Walmart
and some of these other bigger
franchises I think have the resources to
do anti- theft measures and they choose
not to instead they choose to rely on
our local police enforcement to to try
to do that for them um so I
I want to push back against them a
little bit that I think they do have a
lot more responsibility in when it comes
to this um effort I do want to know just
a couple of things before I continue
with my questions that Mano Mano for
those of you who don't know who are in
the room Mano Mano is a day labor
program out of Community of Hope um that
takes people who are currently unhoused
and gives them work to go clean up areas
that have been left for encampments and
so I think there's all this there's a
lot of narratives and a lot of dominant
narratives about on House people that
they don't want to work and and those
things are just not always true and so I
did want to just note that my Mano is an
incredible
program um I have some questions for
Brad as well if that's okay um Brad do
you know how far away we are from SOS
being in
place good afternoon mayor mayor protim
uh in my conversations with the
municipal court it's my understanding
that we are not very far away at all my
best guess would be probably
two or three months away two or three
months away it's we're we're we're
getting very very close um the municipal
court now has a case manager on staff
they've hired I believe six uh
additional new staff members that are
traditionally what we would think of as
clerks but they will be assisting that
case manager with uh helping to plug
some of our more vulnerable population
into uh services around town with our uh
local partners
and so by the way that's a guess two or
three months I would say six months on
the outside just based on my
conversations with Municipal Court staff
but I do think that it is happening very
very soon and I for want am optimistic
about it okay thank you I think if if
the goal of these is really to sort of
push people to Municipal core so that
they can get them services and the goal
is not to criminalize then I would ask
that if shall this happen that it be
implemented once SOS court is ready
noted uh mayor protim uh if I may
briefly respond to something that was
said earlier sure go ahead uh councelor
Corin brought up an excellent question
earlier and I'm not sure if I will even
answer it as eloquently as Chief story
did but her question counselor your
question was if this ordinance was
enacted what would be different about
this person that had 14 carts and my
answer I'm not speaking for Chief
story I was asking about the person who
broke the window not the 14 cart person
I misunderstood your question sorry I
understand the context for the cart
person I was I was asking a different
question thank you counselor thank you
sorry um no I misunderstood but um my
hope would be that it wouldn't happen
because we would have the onus on the
business owners either to take some
ownership no pun intended or
responsibility for their own property
that's the the whole purpose of the
shopping cart plan uh and also as Chief
story said enforcement is not the
primary goal here um plugging people
into Treatment Services would be the
primary goal BR in your experience um as
an attorney and being in many courts
probably um right now is using treatment
as an expansion of community service how
often are you seeing that I am seeing it
more and more often within the last year
since the New Mexico Supreme Court made
a ruling that treatment is an acceptable
substitute for community service whether
that be substance abuse counseling
mental health treatment or a combination
of both I am seeing it much more often
on a weekly basis I would say and for
that to work it the judge has to come to
that conclusion right the judge has to
propose go up but then the person also
has to agree to it correct that's right
that's right mayor protim um so let's
say hypothetically someone was fined in
the amount and this goes to a point that
councelor Florida has brought up earlier
really good question also um what would
happen if someone were find let's say
$200 through the Municipal Court well we
always have to have an ability to pay
hearing often times that would occur uh
at a sentencing on uh on a disposition
dispositional hearing for a criminal
offense let's say so let's say someone
has fined $200 and that person says your
honor I cannot pay $200 you're finding
me $200 for me I can pay $200 me
personally for some people 200 thou or
$200 might as well be
$200,000 and we understand that and so
what we would hope is to impose after an
ability to pay hearing uh community
service in lie of that $200 fine and if
that person so chooses with the
assistance of our new case manager we
could plug them into services that would
satisfy that community service
obligation and hopefully uh we'd be
treating the person as an individual
rather than just seeking to punish
conduct we're trying to make sure that
the conduct doesn't happen in the future
Brad right now there is also um
something in an ordinance that says if
you fail to pay that's an additional
$100 correct not if you fail to pay
mayor protim if you fa fail to appear
for uh a court uh appearance let's say
there's a pre-trial conference and
notice goes out to that person uh let's
say at their home address let's say that
we're not dealing with an unhoused
person just me let's say I get a
citation through the municiple court I
will get a notice at my house at my or
at my mailing address let's say if I had
a po. box uh and let's say I get that
notice and I don't show up to court well
then a bench warrant more than likely
what issue for my arrest and there is a
$100 administrative fee for processing
the bench warrant that I believe as of
right now only this governing body can
wave I don't believe that the presiding
judge has the authority to forgive that
correct correct I think for me that
would be an another important missing
piece of the puzzle as we move forward I
brought this up during Council comments
before and I think would love to hear
from Municipal Court staff about what
this looks like because it just creates
a debtor's court and for someone who may
use 999 West Amador as an address just
to have an address that doesn't mean
that they're consistently checking for
mail there that's that's right mayor
protim uh it is a challenge that we face
on an almost daily basis and this is not
just with regard to some people that we
think is uh homeless there are many
different as you know there are many
different I don't want to say levels but
types of unhoused scenario or or home
insecurity and so some people might have
a home one month and the next month they
don't and then the month after that they
might stay with a friend or a family
member what I can tell you that we try
to do in the municipal court is we try
to make sure that this these people any
person uh gets notice in as many ways as
possible uh Some people prefer to get
their notice by email you'd be shocked
or maybe you wouldn't be on how many
people unhoused or otherwise wise just
simply prefer to get their notice via
email if they have a mailing address it
becomes much easier um I know the
Community of Hope has been providing a
great service with regard to receiving
mail and being a willing recipient uh of
people's mail the challenge with that is
they only hold it for so long we can't
expect them to hold it for a month or
two months so if someone doesn't come
collect their mail after about a week I
think that they dispose of it uh but we
do we we hand deliver notices so if
someone comes to court in person and
they have another hearing in 45 or 60
days what we try to do is actually hand
them physically a copy of their notice
for their next hearing is it a perfect
system uh no it's not uh admittedly but
we do the best we can thanks BR and then
with SOS Court um let's say a person all
things align and a person chooses the
judge says yes this person could
definitely do community service or an
extension treatment or whatever and that
person chooses to do that does then the
crime get removed from the record
so no not not automatically so in New
Mexico oh about four or five years ago
now uh we we do now have uh an
expungement process in New Mexico via
statute we did not always have that uh
so anytime you get arrested if you are
arrested
um that is in a number of databases
whether it be an FBI database our local
database Etc um it would potentially
show as
dismissed um but would it still be on
that person's record yes it would unless
they apply to the third Judicial
District Court for an expungement of
their criminal record after a requisite
time period and there's nothing we could
do about that that's State Statute is
that a free process can anybody do that
or would I need to have an attorney to
expunge
they don't have to have an attorney it
would be much easier with an attorney um
and so that's something that we might
want to think about reaching out to our
nonprofits with regard to um providing
pro bono Legal Services every attorney
in the state of New Mexico has
encouraged uh as councilor Flores knows
knows this bit to to provide so many
hours each year of pro bono
Services um and so maybe that's
something that we could attempt to
organize so an expungement process isn't
necessarily something easily accessible
to everybody you'd have to be pretty in
the no for an attorney it would be easy
for a lay person I think it would
probably be somewhat confusing yes yeah
okay thanks Brad um I see Chief coming
up I don't know if you had something to
say about this I did mayor mayor pro
thank you and there's ultimately two
parts of the SOS program there's the
diversion program or part of it and then
there's a post conviction so really what
we're talking about is a postc
conviction they've already been found
guilty
or they they they played no contest to
one of these charges and then as a
condition of essentially their probation
that their sentence is community service
and treatment in Li of that but
ultimately the goal is to do the
diversion program where right if
someone's a candidate before it even
gets to a conviction they have the
option of engaging this treatment
program and if successful then the
charge is dismissed outright and there's
no conviction on their record at all
okay thanks Chief I I'll get into this
diversion here in a second but I think I
there's just a couple things I wanted to
add
um I think there's this you had this
this sort of narrative around perception
versus reality um and for me I think and
this is where I struggle with both of
these ordinances because I think um that
from my professional experience
especially the shopping cart ordinance I
think is feeding more into a perception
of safety I don't actually believe that
it brings about real safety and I think
it's going to create a bunch of more
barriers for unhoused people who are
truly trying to seek services or will
eventually be ready to seek services and
I think one of the things that worries
me many of these things worry worry me
about this but one of the things that
worries me the the most is that when the
community who is here who is really
advocating and pushing for these things
um begins to see that there's still
people panhandling like that's still an
issue there is serious poverty in this
community there are serious need for
housing in this community there's a
serious ious need for mental health
services in this community right and so
when people continue to see that there's
still people panhandling on the street
that people still are carrying their
belongings whether it's whether it's
their tent or their blanket or whatever
it is right um when people still see it
I've I think they're going to come back
and say you're not doing anything and
and I don't want them to say that to you
because I know your officers work really
hard but I know they're going to say it
to us and they're going to say that
we're tying your hands they're going to
say city council is tying your hands
should be able to do your job I'm not
asking you to answer that Chief I'm just
posing that as a potential um concern
that I have as we go on and and
potentially implement this that's one of
the things for sure um for me diversion
is incredibly important um I think I I
don't know I might be in the minority
with my colleagues around some of these
pieces um and so if if they're going to
move forward I have three asks for as we
move forward in creating these so for
you as well Brad but for CD manager and
yourself
um one of them I I I think it's an as we
approach people who are on house and
have a shopping cart or as we approach
somebody who is um potentially being
aggressive in their
solicitation um that there be a needs
assessment conducted of that person
whether it's the officer or whoever it
is that approaches that person um and
I'd be happy to work with advocates
perhaps the new case worker at Municipal
Court um to come up with what this would
look like and to really understand what
this person is going through because if
if our goal really is towards
Rehabilitation and diversion and to fix
a problem um then I I want to I think
it's important that we understand what
that person is going through whether
it's housing needs whether they qualify
for benefits and they don't know it
whether it's a medical issue that
immediately they might need something
whatever it is um to conduct a needs
assessment
number two I would love to know um
whenever if there's language that can be
added around whenever possible
especially around aggressive pain
handling for the use of the light team
something that for me has always been
really important when it comes to
Diversion is that we pair the right
first responser to the right emergency
and if we are encountering someone that
has um who is already in an altered
state that potentially may have a mental
health issue um and sometimes the
presence of a a uniform will escalate
that right like that is that's just true
for many folks nothing you may have done
just the presence of a law enforcement
agent may have increased the um the
tension and so whenever whenever
possible and if available we know that
our project light folks are incredibly
busy and um are responding to a ton of
calls but whenever possible that project
light is also
um I I want to say issue it out but
that's the wrong word um that they're
also call
um resp responding to that call thank
you and then the last thing that I
really want to ask her that I deeply
believe is necessary is for us to grow
the community outreach team at Community
of Hope right now there are two folks
that I wish we could clone into 100
people um but right now those two folks
are completely overwhelmed um but there
are folks who deeply understand the
experience of being being unhoused folks
who have training and dealing with folks
who have mental health issues um all of
like they have incredible training and
right now there's two people and I
really believe that um if we increased
that team if we grew that team they
could be a good partner for law
enforcement they could be a good partner
for um municipal court and so I would
like to make an official request for the
um the growth of that
team and I will even have a dollar
amount for you
um I think it's important that the folks
who
are doing that work also have better pay
um I think it's incredibly difficult
work and I would like to see them get an
increase in their salary and I would
like for this the city to support that
um so I like I said I would like to
increase the existing Outreach team with
two new Outreach staff um and then I
would also like to increase our hotspot
truck um I think the Mano Mano program
has been incredibly successful for a
long time and even more successful since
we implemented a hotspot truck that is
allowing for us to go into even private
areas where there has been clearly a an
abandoned encampment that was there um
and folks are are picking up um these
things and I think um they would need to
be a new a purchase of a new truck um
and so I would say 235,000
for um the staff and then an
additional money from that so maybe
300,000 for an additional vehicle for
Mano mano to me I think as we continue
with these if we continue with something
like this I think
um I deeply believe that we actually may
me making things worse and that really
concerns me um but as we move forward I
also want to make sure that there is as
much harm reduction as possible and I
also I want to come to the table and I
want to be a good team player I don't
want to just say no I don't believe this
period I want to come to the table Chief
and I think you know that that's um
where I'm coming from and I know that
after this meeting potentially there'll
be a lot of criticisms about what I had
to say here today but I I I'm a big
supporter of um the Outreach court and
Municipal Court in fact I was the one
that brought that idea to council and
it's moved forward to what it is now um
but I want to be able to bring some
potential um Alternatives as well so
that that would be my requests and I'm
going to stop talking now because I can
hear my voice getting horse thank
you thank you mayor pend councelor Grant
thanks mayor um thank you Chief story
Brad really appreciate
it this is a hard one
um I I understand deeply of the concerns
being brought up by my colleagues so far
I want to tell people in the public I am
receiving and reading your emails
hopefully you at least get from me a
receipt acknowledged message so you know
I've seen it as we've said many times
but it always Bears repeating when we
have something that we're going to vote
on we really can't engage a lot in
discussion on it um and I want everyone
to know
that all of this all of these voices are
informing how I'm thinking about this
and as concerning as it is to think
about how this can go wrong I want to
talk about how this can go right because
to me the reality is a lot of the folks
we're talking
about are not getting Services anyway
and as a city leader I I
feel I feel a deep sense of
responsibility I sometimes feel
neglectful when I see people who I know
are desperately in need of services and
if if I'm too if I'm too afraid to try
something
new then I don't feel that I am
necessarily doing my due diligence up
here so in terms of to me and chief I
think you would probably agree the way
this goes right is that an individual
ends up in treatment ends up in a better
position than when they were first
encountered um can you talk a little bit
about Community Partners with whom
you've met on this some conversations
you've had where are we in terms
of
preloading the as many players as
possible to deal to deal with this
productively mayor councelor Graham
leading up to this it's fact right after
um
everything that happened in February I
met with Nicole um about a number of ISS
Nicole Martinez with the Community of
Hope and at least gave her a heads up
that this is something that I was going
to pursue specifically the shopping cart
ordinance um and I don't obviously I
don't know that I'd say she's supportive
of it but I think she's if it passes
she's willing to be a partner to to do
it right to do it the best way we can so
I spoke to miss martinis I've spoke to
judge phosa and Municipal Court staff
again the SOS program is is a broad
program for all all of these Petty
mamers but this fits right in with the
timing of that and the goals of what
we're trying to accomplish and so that
includes diversion first and foremost if
possible if not even a condition of a
conviction to make sure that the result
is treatment and I do agree it's a
win-win for everybody if if the city is
cleaned up there's less crime there's
less people being victimized and the
people who are suffering generally from
mental illness Andor substance use
actually get some help for once because
that's only happening when someone is
lucid enough to say I need help which
unfortunately is not that often not
often enough at least um and those
Partners come together mono and mono I
will say has been a great partner
especially with our community outreach
section they are hardworking um they do
a lot of good in these areas where we
have all this blight and trash and so
that'd be one of our partners other City
departments Parks and Recreation where
we see a lot of these issues in our
parks and when I say everything's
intertwined everything is related it
really is and there's all this carryover
that's why I do feel this ordinance
would have a positive effect and maybe
maybe not I would have felt as strong
about that two years ago but when you go
through the city and you really get out
and you look at what's happening it's
such a significant issue that improving
this will carry over into other things I
believe
that thank you
Chief and
I so I think better in writing than I'm
able to just speak off the cuff and I
was wasn't sure I wasn't sure if this
was the day that we're all going to kind
of make our statements but I did I did
write a little and I hope you guys will
indulge me I'm just going to read three
quick paragraphs um and again a lot of
this is based on communication that I've
received from the public um people
reaching out with questions with
concerns with support and I want to
acknowledge everything I'm hearing so a
protest I've heard consistently about
the osed ordinances is that they will
increase engagement between police
police officers and some of our most
vulnerable people while this certainly
will be the case the alarm it causes
presupposes that all interactions
between law enforcement and home
homeless residents will be negative and
I do not believe this is the case I
believe in and have witnessed the
overriding Goodwill concern and
professionalism of the Las Cruses Police
Department I understand that like any
policy maker I cannot predict abs
absolutely what all consequences of my
decisions will be but I trust that our
officers will in good faith work to find
the critical balance necessary to
improve Safety and Security for all
residents while also increasing the
chance that those facing challenges like
addiction and mental health issues will
plug into available
resources so just wanted to say that
part um and I wrote a whole lot more so
you know if you're excited at a future
session I'll I'll regail you but thank
you mayor
thank you councelor Graham anyone
else go ahead councelor cler I just have
a quick question have we factored in how
the special session might play into this
specifically the solicitation
ordinance mayor councelor mlar it's
difficult but I haven't seen an actual
draft bill that would address pan
handling um they're playing with the
same roles that we are when it comes to
the constitutionality of any type of
solicitation or panhandling ordinance so
anything that's passed is going to have
to follow that same framework that
acknowledges those four kind of guard
rails that I started with um so whatever
they pass cannot be that different from
what we're trying to to pass here and if
they pass a state statute it doesn't
really affect our city ordinance because
we we have the option to enforce either
which is what we have for most crimes
the state statute and uh Municipal
ordinance that mirr each
other thank
you Council MTI
Chief story I I just want to thank you
very much for bringing this forward to
review and hopefully pass
um I I think in the eight and a half
years that I was in Santa Teresa I
really didn't see the
blight and the unhealthy conditions and
and the unsafe conditions in Los Cruses
but in the last uh year and a half that
I've been staying in Los cruus and
traveling and going to different
businesses talking to Bell students New
Mexico State University students we have
the young we have the old we have the
business people we have people in the
shopping centers that really appreciate
your
holistic the way you're going to do this
it's very balanced it takes care of the
safety issue takes care of the health
issue and I believe the businesses will
thank you as well if the city looks
better it will be more prosperous if
it's more prosperous then we have more
money more grocery seats coming in to
help with the nonprofits community help
mono imano it it's all
interconnected if the business is full
of blight unsafe
homicides Breakin windows I just had
this morning I was at lalis I'm Osa and
I just want to say thank you to your
officer that serviced that call but they
just decided to just break into the
house break windows and that's happening
all throughout Los crues so I think any
step that we can take to make the city
look safer be safer and actually take
care of these people because what we're
doing we're just letting them be on the
street and no one's no one's really
caring about them whether it's two carts
14 carts 15 carts they're down and out
and they're unhoused and I and I
understand that and we all have a very
compassionate City we do care about them
but I really like the approach that
you're doing to care about them to get
them to treatment centers and thank
you I have one more
[Applause]
thing pro thank you I just have I just
have one more thing to add but just a
little bit to that I don't I don't I
don't think it's true that no one's
caring for them I think there's um
there's a pretty significant um
community at Community of Hope in other
places that are absolutely trying their
best with the amount of resources that
they have there's just never enough
resources and I think that's one of the
things that is important to understand
is that um resources can't just be
towards enforcement they have to be
towards um all the other things that
address the root causes of of what's
ultimately happening here which is
poverty or trauma or substance use um
the other thing that I the last thing
that I just want to say is I want to
pose a a challenge to our community as
well around um looking at this
holistically Chief I think that's really
important and I I always push for that
and one of the biggest pieces in this
conversation of our inous neighbors
which by the way Folks at 999 West sador
those those that's District Four those
are my constituents as well right um but
the one of the biggest pieces to this
puzzle is housing and um every single
time there's a zoning request or
anything there's um there's this thing
called a nimi and it's often used to um
talk about people that it's it's not in
my backyard people that often talk talk
about not wanting they don't want to see
homeless folks but they also don't want
housing in their neighborhoods and so I
want to pose a gentle challenge to our
community about becoming yimes about
becoming yes in my backyard people about
becoming folks who also support um
housing because if ultimately if we
don't have housing we're never actually
going to get uh to solve the problem and
DC Urena talked about this at the Town
Hall around um we're not going to rest
our way out of this problem um and so I
do want to um given that there's been
recent push back against something like
Amador Crossings I do want to make sure
that I'm also challenging our community
to also be advocates for housing thank
you
mayor mayor can mayor mayor protim and I
think that's kind of the goal is that
that balanced approach and I've
mentioned it before when it comes to
Parenting
that you have to find the balance and
that's what we're trying to accomplish
if if there is no enforcement there's no
consequence and as a parent if your your
kidss do something that there should be
a consequence for and there's not then
it promotes other behavior and it tends
to escalate and grow at the same time
that has to be done with love that has
to be done with an amount of Grace some
amount of Grace and I think we can care
about the people that are less fortunate
and still have some consequence so that
we can actually get them out of the
situation they're in because ultimately
the caring and compassionate thing is to
try to do whatever we can to get them
out of that situation so they don't have
to live that way cuz it's a a terrible
way to live and
exist okay thank you
Chief good uh Chief I just want to say
first and foremost thank you and I
complement you I know the role of a
police officer whether you're fighting
crime enforcing the law or being a peace
officer and what you exemplify is
bringing peace to our community and I
thank you for that just the first line
of we're not here to punish people
especially those that are homeless uh I
know it's going to take resources and
that's why we've already said we're
going to move forward with the municipal
court and give it all the resources it
needs because if you were to arrest them
it's then what so it's up to the
judicial system to do the then what and
provide that treatment one of the
biggest concerns I have really is do we
have enough treatment are we going to
have enough and I know the courts say
they're they're they're working with
them and there's enough but but we've
got to continue because that's going to
be the next layer of the then what so
we're addressing them I think this is
great we got to take steps we have to
you know peel the layers back and we're
doing it with ordinances we're doing it
with the Municipal Court resources we'll
do it with the uh resources for the
police department and its staff
equipment and Technology Innovation so
we we'll continue because we're going to
need the resources we're going to need
those resources because we're going to
be faced with what's next in order to
really have a safe community and to
instill the peace that you're looking
for so I really thank you for that I did
have one question you mentioned the
ankle
monitors um you know because that's one
of the things of they're how do they get
their mail or they're incarcerated or
things what is the purpose of the ankle
monitors good question mayor and thank
you for your comments um right now the
municipal court has no pre-trial
Services which means if someone's out on
conditions of release there's nothing to
actually help them abide by those
conditions of release the way the judge
knows that they they violated them is
because they got arrested on something
else and they're back before the judge
so this gives us an option especially
for you know like the the gentlemen I
showed you at the beginning or the many
like him those top 10% of offenders
whatever you want to call them who
continuously reoffend now we have an
option for the compliance Personnel to
help keep them accountable they can also
be used to help geofence area so let's
say a person repeatedly goes to a
business and victimizes people they're
they're grabbing young girls they're
punching people whatever it is all that
happens now you can set a perimeter
around it and while they're on
conditions to release if they go in that
perimeter it notifies the compliance
officer and they can address it so it
gives us a few tools that we do not have
now and I think it's a a good step again
it's very selective on who actually
would be under GPS monitoring but it's a
tool we don't have right now okay thank
you chief
[Applause]
okay next I want to go ahead and go with
uh some public comments and if I could
get a show of hands of the individuals
that would like to
speak okay since there there there's
several what what I'd like to do is just
uh total maximum of public comments to
go to 20 minutes uh each individual can
come up here and get two minutes if you
want to relinquish your minutes is
somebody else a Max you'll get is 6
minutes again I ask you to be respectful
and polite I can start with the first
row the second row here on my left and
we move forward if there's we're we're
we're not here to get into any debates
or anything if you have some concerns or
some questions come up those will be
answered by the chief at the end with
his closing comments so if you could
state your name for the record and we'll
give everyone two minutes and we'll just
go uh for 20 minutes thank
you mayor mayor protim distinguished
Commissioners city
counselor my name is Richard Dean Pew
I've uh I've worked on West Pacho most
of my
life in
uh in the 70s I would walk from Alam
Junior High to 1885 West
Picacho and I'd work after school schol
until it was time to go
home I came back to U that location in
May of 19 and things had
changed my my wife won't let my
granddaughter come to work with
me and that's a sad thing because um I
spend more of my waking hours at 1885
West Picacho than I do anywhere
else last week I had a customer that
came in he sold his house in South
Dakota and he bought a truck and a tiny
house and his transmission broke down on
West Picacho and while I was working on
his vehicle he was living in his tiny
house out behind my shop and uh I told
him I've got security cameras and I've
got um friends in the neighborhood and
you should be fine back there the first
night they stole his Rose
Bush and you know he was a little upset
about that but he understands he sees
the people that walk by
there the next night they stole his
little um cactus garden that was in the
little bird cage that was on the front
of his his
house the third night they stole his
electric bike and his little trailer
that his dog Herby rides around
in and
I got his truck fixed the next day
thankfully he said I didn't feel secure
there not one night that I was there we
can spend all the money we want on
trying to get things where people come
here but until we fix West Picacho where
they feel secure over there they're not
going to come back thank you sir please
make it more secure thank you anyone
else on the second row
I'm Pat Pew from Amco also and the the
the problem with the the shopping carts
is we have a video of the um the bad
guys uh at 2:30 Sunday afternoon
climbing up with some some saw horses um
stealing the the $1,500 worth of tools
out of the out of the
gadston truck
uh gadon Independent School truck
pushing them across the street to the
desert Lodge where they uh where the
fencing operation was um it's it's
totally unacceptable you guys did the
raid a couple of weeks ago it was
wonderful to raid the the Motel Next
Door the uh Imperial sky but and they
were only arrested for two or three days
the I was offended that that we are told
told that the New Mexico people approved
bail reform in a in a
referendum if the problem is bail reform
let's change the legislation and get
these people and and then the other
night at the Town Hall the district
attorney said he only has three days to
prosecute a crime that makes no sense at
all so we've got to make a change to
make these things work thank you for
what you do sir
thank you same
bro my name is Fred huff and I want to
talk about the grocery card ordinance
I've been involved with this quite a
while uh since last summer and when when
I was starting to look at it I looked at
an ordinance in Santa Fe where they were
putting a lot of the oness on the
business
and making them really responsible and
actually finding the businesses for
allowing these carts to go off premises
I went absolutely ballistic that they
that Santa Fe would find the businesses
for having their shopping cart
stolen but then as I did more and more
research I
realized it had to be that way the
businesses need to take some
responsibility
to mitigate this issue it's just like we
don't leave our doors unlocked every day
the businesses try to stop the
shoplifters inside the business this is
shoplifting outside the business it's
stealing it's theft they need to take
responsibility so I appreciate and I
encourage everybody to support this we
do need to make the re businesses
responsibility responsible it's not
totally their fault I mean that the
thieves are stealing the carts and
that's what the other part of the
ordinance is doing but we do need to
have the businesses participate in this
there as Chief story mentioned there's
the electronic breaks there's a PO
there's a lot of ways to mitigate this
this will help encourage the businesses
to do this this is a step to get started
cleaning up this blight thank you Chief
story for bringing this
[Applause]
forward hello excuse me hello my name is
Lisa per I'm a resident of district 6
and I wrote this on the fly so I hope it
makes sense we in this room despite our
differing viewpoints I think it is safe
to say are compassionate toward our
fellow human beings where we differ is
that one group feels no one is above the
law and therefore no one is arrest proof
why should I be arrested for stealing a
shopping cart simply because I have a
home One Believes In personal
responsibility and believes all people
are responsible for their actions the
other group believes in enabling those
who continue to make bad decisions
whether it be from economics drug abuse
family history or lack of Education
therefore forcing the first group to pay
for all of the what the other groups uh
other group does by steal killing and
destroying our property and our city now
you mentioned revising
the zoning ordinance perhaps with
Rehabilitation treatment and education
the homeless people can choose to make
become self-supporting and be able to
make good decisions and rent and buy
their homes without reaching into my
fam's life savings the equity in our
home that you're threatening with this
new this new um
zoning review and then therefore those
people can have their own homes won't be
homeless and our city will become a
better place thank you and God
[Applause]
bless good afternoon my name is Shauna
feifer I shared personal experiences
from many of your districts within Los
crusis at a previous city council
meeting those experiences were
frightening numerous continuing and
unfortunately not unique to me anyone
who has property in the city owns a
business runs an errand or visits a
public park has to continuously avoid
aggressive panhandlers who won't take no
for an answer most of those aggressive
solicitors are clearly in the throws of
drug use or mental illness this makes
them unpredictable and downright
predatory we must protect those most
vulnerable within our community from
violent vagrants that know who they can
Target consider young women with babies
in toe leaving a bank or your
grandmother leaving her
Pharmacy the proposed solicitation
ordinance changes must be adop Ed to
protect them do you want tax funding for
your affordable housing initiatives then
help us spend our money at Brick and
Mortar Los cruus businesses this
ordinance targets aggressive solicitors
acting in a predatory manner not those
who warrant our true empathy if I were a
visitor to our once beautiful city my
impression of Los cruus would be that
city government does not care about
their Community a city who allows
illegal encampments comprised of rounded
shopping cart trains filled with trash
must not care about the decline of their
city in fact a city that can't come
together after the murder of a police
officer by a violent vagrant to ensure
it doesn't happen to someone else is a
perfect City for criminals to operate
with
impunity the proposed shopping cart
ordinance will help curb this blight
that we've all seen around town no one
is going to go to jail for having a
stolen shopping cart but imposing
penalties on possession of stolen carts
will create situations where the police
can educate folks about services to a
assist them it will make it just a
little less desirable for those who
would come to Los cruus to take
advantage of our empathy and commit
crimes within our community the
ordinance is such that businesses bear
the brunt of the responsibility to
ensure carts aren't stolen in the first
place this is unfair but necessary to
ensure it gets done as the businesses in
this community have become the Catalyst
for change up to this point all we were
asking is for you untie the hands of law
enforcement so that we can work together
to save our city thank
[Applause]
you mayor counselors um my name is Beth
Bardwell and first um I want to say that
not all crime is increasing in Los cruus
um this quarter crime statistics show a
reduction in burglaries breaking in
entering vehicle theft and arson and in
fact total crime is down 5% this quarter
um so when today's work session summary
begins with the blanket statement that
Los cruus has suffered from increased
crime it's not telling the whole story
right we're only telling half of the
story that focuses on the bad news
increasing a sense of Doom and Gloom and
public insecurity and fearfulness and
and I I don't agree with that um I fully
support actions whose goals are to
decrease homelessness or address unmet
Behavioral Health needs or substance
abuses abuse treatment needs criminal
records however make it even harder to
access shelter housing and jobs and
contribute to the cycle of homelessness
what if these criminal ordinances merely
Shuffle people experiencing homelessness
from one neighborhood to another from
one town to another from streets to jail
multiple times I've heard the presenters
talk about the importance of perception
this is our version of the Broken Window
Theory do you remember that from New
York City back in the day and the theory
goes that abandoned shopping carts
signal that lock Cruis is neglected and
we have an open door to Crime that if we
only were to remove those abandoned
shopping carts and maintain order we
will get rid of the panhandler and the
guy sleeping in a tent on the street if
you Rie if you review the research the
Broken Window Theory was largely
debunked and was accompanied by an
increas complaints about police
misconduct the fact is criminalization
of homelessness cannot eliminate extreme
poverty and other root causes of
homelessness and I hope you take the
telshore fund this budget cycle to
invest in those root causes and address
homelessness thank
[Applause]
you my name is Dan parrot and I'd like
to urge the protim mayor and counselors
to pass these two ordinances to give the
police department the tools they need
mostly I'd like to see it to put the
responsibility to help prevent the cart
losses on the businesses I personally
talked with Walmart management
approximately 6 months ago the first
contact with them they were very
optimistic about it they asked me to
call back about 2 weeks later when I
called back to Bentonville Arkansas
their phone numbers had been changed I
left numerous requests for them to call
me back to see if we could work with
them to come to Equitable solution to
this issue some of the solutions that I
have come up with and I've done some
research on this is consistent with
Chief story's uh request in these
ordinances uh I would request that
parking brakes be put on the carts an
option would be to use what airports use
or that if a customer decides to leave
the store with a cart they leave a
deposit when they turn it back to a
Corral area they insert their credit
card they get their 50 or $100 credit
back yes it's quite a bit of money to
put on your card but that would be one
solution the other request that I would
add is to make it illegal to push pull
possess or otherwise move a shopping
cart on a public rideway this came from
a Federal Way Washington ordinance which
been very successful
I would ask for equal and fair treatment
of all people in Los crues the citizens
as well as the homeless and to provide
help for the homeless uh it is cruel and
unusual to punish and to obey the law
everyone needs to do that not just the
citizens the homeless also they do need
help I would ask about the thousands of
citizens the council is elected to
support and represent and I urge a vote
in positive honor sir your time so thank
you you know I said we would go 20
minutes so we're more than halfway done
so if you can just uh speak to your
point as quickly as you can so that
others can get an opportunity to speak
so you don't have to take the whole two
minutes so thank you promise I'll be
brief uh mayor City councilors my name
is Liz Rodriguez Johnson and I'm a a
citizen of Onana County Mental Health
homelessness and drug abuse
have been a problem throughout the
United States for a long time what's
required our resources to deal with that
you know un unfortunately most of the
ordinances that were proposed assume
that the resources are there that they
have that the courts have everything
they need to to funnel these people to
what they to what the resour resources
they should be getting I don't think
it's there yet you know except for the
piece that talks about making the
businesses responsible for the shopping
carts you know because that's how it
should be I don't think all the
necessary resources are there and I
heard several counselors the mayor say
that that they're going to do more to
get the resources there but that's what
re is required to help solve this
problem as much as possible unless un
Las Cruses makes a full commitment to
having all the resources there it's
going to continue and what these
ordinances are going to do is what um
councilwoman Beno said the research
showed it's just going to create a
revolving door of these homeless people
going in and out and making their
situation a lot worse thank you
mayor members of council my name is
Daniel Williams and I'm a policy
Advocate at the American civil liberties
Union of New Mexico I want to first
thank the council the mayor and the city
Administration for the proactive
Creative Steps you have taken and are
taking to address the harms that poor
and unhoused people in Las crus has
experiened I truly believe that
homelessness and extreme poverty are
among the most pressing moral crises of
our time and they require bold
compassionate action to to address
unfortunately the proposed solicitation
and Sol and shopping cart ordinances are
not the solutions we need few if any of
us like to see a person experiencing
homelessness in our community including
when they are asking for help to survive
or storing their possessions at a
shopping cart but criminalizing these
symptoms of the problem will do nothing
to solve the problems we're facing
punishing people for experiencing
homelessness or severe economic distress
for asking for help with or for storing
their possessions will not meaningfully
improve Public Safety or address the
underlying societal problems it will
however risk further entrenching the
person in the cycle of poverty while we
appreciate the chief's attempt to take a
holistic approach and his comments that
these ordinances are not intended to
criminalize homelessness it is our deep
conviction and concern that that will be
their precise effect if the intent is to
create options for care and support
Beyond criminal enforcement we should
look beyond the criminal legal system as
the venue to do that thank you
[Applause]
the third row anybody in the third
row and anybody else wishing if you
would start making your way to the to
the
front my name is R MOS I've been around
I used to just work out of L I used to
be a great sir can you speak directly to
thank you my name is Rach I was mlim I
used to come L cuz I used to be a gound
bus driver I see it grow a lot and I
think that lock on the courts I've been
a lot of cities that lock on the carts
FL the the the of the carts and moving
of the carts and like on that 999 Amador
and if the security guards would stop
them from bringing it on the property
would help a
lot you know they moved a lot of stuff
because they come to eat you know and
providing a lock of from you know the
like that slep up would
help and getting the medication when
since I became the L CES I'm a
veteran and the veteran thing over here
give me a problem about getting my
medication I picture a lot of
psychotropic medication and I still
haven't got they send it from lber you
know it's not that you don't try all
right thank you thank you
sir yeah if you all can just be brief
there's quite a few behind mind you
mayor council ju Garcia councilor bomo I
have presented and challenged the
council various times either publicly
and in person and in email to join me in
the in in my backyard initiative no one
has responded the offer is still
there good questions by the council but
it's unfortunate there was no mention of
accountability and consequences by and
for the criminals we've been advocating
for about 2 years and a dozens of
effective Crime Victims have stood
behind this Podium advocating for change
to Local ordinances it is unfortunate it
took the senseless cold-blooded murder
of a police officer to at least get you
to at least consider to at least
consider these
changes please support the
ordinances thank
you Henry
young I am probably as compassionate for
the homeless as anyone here
today I will say though
that crime is
crime and the these things need to be
put in place this is the beginning of an
entire comprehensive plan that can
change our
city what the chief and his staff have
done is very important I would like to
see it carried out when I say crime is
crime it's up to them to go ahead and
issue those
citations and then let the Court decide
on a case-by casee situation where
compassion can come in so it's not
excluded it's there I disagree with what
the gentleman from the ACLU said um I
have worked with the homeless for a long
time I know how they act how they work
and they do need help but this is a
beginning thank
you thank you City councilors and mayor
I'm Sarah
Smith I am very much in support of these
ordinances I really appreciate councelor
Graham saying we need to try something
different and we've been struggling for
a long time trying to figure out how are
we going to get people off the street
how are we going to get people into
treatment this ordinance gives us the
ability to do exactly that in a way that
we haven't been able to do before and so
we've got to try something different
because what we've been doing is not
working and I really appreciate the
thoughtfulness of including in this
ordinance that ability for community
service which can turn into treatment
which is exactly what this community
needs thank
[Applause]
you my name is Lori English and I live
in the city uh I have a couple questions
that I'd just like to throw out for you
to consider first of all uh how do you
um site a homeless person when they live
in a tent and every other week that tent
may move Community of Hope and the
Gospel Mission have tried to eliminate
this problem of finding homeless people
but you can't sight somebody if you
can't find them you can't sight somebody
if they're living in another County
County or outside of the city so that's
one of the problems second of all having
the supermarkets and the stores in
particular Walmart I don't care how you
feel Pro or con about Walmart but the
bottom line is you start imposing
demands on Walmart or Albertson's or
spouts or Target you are going to
increase our grocery
prices respectively because the more
money they have to spend the more money
they're going to pass on to us last of
all I just have a issue with the um real
Qui ma'am thank item thank you thanks
thank you
for
next hi my name is Keith and
um how we can I actually am homeless but
how I became homeless my mom was
murdered as her caregiver and the Los
cruus Police Department FAS m matter of
fact is the officer I'm not um worried
about
that but that's how we came homeless um
me and my
brother how we you can
actually sum up this whole
problem target the people who are
actually making it easy for the homeless
to get those cards and it's the rich
people who who actually or the people
who have houses take the carts off the
property and we just happened to see a b
um cart and the one where the officer
said there's trash in the cart that's
because there was not near trash can
thank you thank
[Applause]
you Vic vovo so I was going to have a
lot to say um but you know I I my my
conversation was going to start with Dr
Schumacher calling me last week when one
of her female employees was assaulted by
a vagrant who thanks to Chief story was
caught or the event that we had a couple
weekends ago we followed the blood trail
for a man that had been stabbed out in
front of our business but I think back
to one of the original meetings we had
first had with you all and even meeting
with with uh councelor bomo and that is
one thing you said we support Chief
story and and I believe this is about
trust I can tell you I trust Chief story
and that's really what it comes down to
do you believe that your police chief is
going to do the right thing for your
community he's not looking to just go
arrest people all over the place where
he would already he's looking to try and
make our community better and really the
only question you have to ask yourself
is do you support the chief I support
the chief we support the chief so I
think it's it's a pretty simple
thing thanks thank
[Applause]
you afternoon Council my name is hir I'm
a long-term resident and I'm just here
to say that um there's a lot of personal
responsibility talk spoken around and
absolutely they are correct however
there's most of the decisions are
outside of the individual control so I
want to say that it isn't the personal
choice of people but the consequence of
pretending that we can incarcerate or
ignore our way are most vulnerable and
the problem will go away the homeless
population says more about who we are
and how we have failed our people and
instead of talking about the government
failure what we have done over the SE
last several decades to what we can do
locally to mitigate it we want to hide
it and find the victims individually
which talks about perception right try
to hide the problem instead of showing
how it really is in all its pain and all
its lack of Glory
um many situations can make people
unable to afford in rent increase next
year so even if we incarcerate everybody
we will have more homeless next year
thank
[Applause]
you name's Jim Hurst um I just want to
say that the the uh Mr Mayor uh I think
you're wrong to limit uh uh public input
public input is what democracy is all
about you're the front line of Defending
democracy what makes democracy strong is
Citizens involvement and uh their
opportunity to to speak to their
government so you should maximize the
opportunity for public comment and
encourage as much as possible instead of
discouraging it um as far as
homelessness goes it's a state problem
the homeless go to where they the most
services available to
them that's they migrate according to
climate and according to what services
are available they know they talk to
each other where's the good next place
to go and the more the cops hassle them
the quicker they move on it's a state
problem it's a national problem Los
Cruses cannot address it alone thank you
very much thank
you somebody deferred their minutes to
me is that okay yeah no we're we're down
to just one minute for every speaking on
behalf of Dr Kyle schacher of schacher
veterinarian Serv can you speak directly
into the mic I'm speaking for Dr Kyle
schacher from Shoemaker Veterinarian
Service she'd like to publicly declare
her support for the
proposed solicitation and shopping cart
ordinance I don't know if y'all are
aware of a young lady that was attacked
at her business a while back uh about a
week ago and she's grateful for the
resport the support that she received
from the local community and the
officers however this story only
enforces the importance of revising and
enforcing these ordinances there is no
excuse for the activities that are
clearly
designated legal solicitation
trespassing on private property theft
drug use and now instance of a personal
battery we only ask that you support
these proposals to change and do what's
right for the public safety and do not
not support the condone or condone these
behaviors we as Law Abiding and
contributing members deserve your
attention ma'am thank ma'am ma'am for
the record could you give us your name
again could you Stacy Boswell and each
one of you was emailed the statement
from Dr Shumacher as well thank
you good afternoon mayor mayor protim
and council members my name is Monae
Silva and I'm the executive director of
the New Mexico Coalition in homelessness
these ordinances will further
criminalize those experiencing
homelesses and they will directly intact
their potential for future housing job
opportunities Etc if these ordinance
should pass please build the system
first we are seeing time and time again
throughout the state that ordinances are
being proposed and there's not a system
in place to assist
them um these ordinances seem to be more
aimed around appearances and not act
getting help to the people that most
need them if these should move forward
we ask that you have the right people at
the table to make these ordinances as
informed by individuals experiencing
homelessness Advocates and providers
please work to build a complete system
and lastly please remember that
homelessness and crime do not always go
hand inand thank
you thank
[Applause]
you hi good afternoon my name is Carla
Martinez I'm I'm here just to
share what I think um for
myself okay um number one um can you
stop to think just about the benefit for
the homeless and start to think about
the rest of the community number two
about shopping car they don't care if
Walmart can buy more it's like say if
somebody take my car it's my fault
because I have one and I can buy another
one number three stop to using the
homeless War we don't think they are bad
people and start to use the real word to
the people who need to be
punished they are the drug dealers who
destroy the city every day they are the
real problem here we can go to the store
or park or just walk around because that
people are mentally lost and use drug in
front of everybody are SN in the streets
and are very aggressive and we need to
explain all this thing to our Childs why
stop to use uh to say this problem is
because the police don't do their job
all here no they are just the first step
to control this and we support them okay
thank you ma'am their time's up thank
you
[Applause]
okay and you'll be the last one once you
got in line kind of late but I'll allow
it go ahead H you're dead wrong to do
what you're doing mayor uh having said
that I'm Peter Goodman reluctantly I
support for the most part the ordinances
61 62 and
63 and the uh shopping cart ordinance as
far as stopping the supply and holding
Walgreens and others uh responsible
making them try to prevent theft uh I
have real concerns about the part about
arresting somebody with a shopping cart
I think uh I wish there' be there were
more time to Tinker with that and make
it uh fairer to homeless and more likely
to survive judicial
scrutiny uh so you might consider that
um I agree generally uh with the ACLU
and everybody else on the other hand
until we're ready to go clean up in
back of people's businesses I don't
think we who are not suffering it can
fairly say oh yeah you know it's nothing
thank you
Chief
story oh is there anyone else has I just
want to say thanks mayor for catching
that I just want to say one quick thing
because I think it's just really
important that we don't feel a narrative
that it's US versus them um it's not um
I think I talk to Chief often actually
probably sorry Chief I probably know you
more than I should um and so I don't
want to create this narrative that we
don't that I don't support the ch Chief
because that's just not true and I hope
you know that Chief thank you mayor
mayor Pro that's what uh Chief was there
anything any final comments or anything
based on what was said if you want
to I I did mayor I appreciate that um
one just to to clarify again nobody is
going to be arrested for possession of a
shopping cart or a violation of the
solicitation ordinances difference
between a physical arrest and a criminal
citation on paper may not be much but
obviously in real life going to jail or
getting a piece of paper is a very
different thing um one of the other
things I want to mention is that you
know improving services that we have
available I agree that we probably don't
have the Serv or we probably we don't
have the services we need when it comes
to mental health in the southern part of
New Mexico especially when it comes to
forensic care we also don't probably
have the resources we need for substance
use but there are a lot of resources
here there are a lot of good people in
that field whether it's medicate
assisted treatment counseling um and all
these other services and they are not
that capacity why because at this point
there is no way to compel people or
there's very little way ways to compel
people to get that treatment and so
continuing to just hope that people will
decide to get the treatment on their own
is not working and it's not going to
work and at some point you can lead a
horse of water you can't make them drink
but you can make them thirsty and when
they're committing crimes that's an
opportunity to make them thirsty
hopefully to improve their life and
ultimately then improve the community
and the last thing I want to say is is
for the people that
aren't in the trenches with the officers
they see the worst of the worst that
this society and this city has to offer
every day in a way that very few
citizens see the Outreach team from K
Outreach sees it other people do see it
but they see what the reality is in the
ditches in the culs in the tunnels and
it's it's fair to say that our
assessment is far more accurate than the
person who sees it from a theoretical
standpoint or from an office or from an
academic standpoint not that those
aren't important but the reality is not
nearly as pretty as painted by some and
if we continue to do what we're doing
we're going to continue to see it get
worse because that's what's happened in
the last few years thank you
mayor thank you Chief
St
so looking over to my colleagues I'm
like I'm in favor of moving these
ordinance forward and uh everyone else
so in agreement no in agreement move it
forward I disagree do not move it
forward I'd Like to Move It Forward
okay anyone
else like to move them
forward
okay we'll move it forward again Chief
thank you I appreciate you bringing this
forward uh to the public thank thank you
for being here today thank you for being
very respectful I appreciate you all for
caring about our community I think Chief
has said it several times it's uh if we
work together we can get a lot
accomplished so thank you for supporting
our Police Department as well thank you
move to
adjourn second
Graham this is on the motion to adjourn
the work session councelor
McClure yes councelor matis yes
councelor Graham yes counc Karan no yes
yes councelor
fles councelor flotes yes councelor bomo
yes mayor
yes for